Late 80s, early 90s. At least for cheap, quality road/touring/all around bikes. The Trek 750/520 around the turn of the 90s is a phenomenal, cheap all rounder. Fits 700x44s and has a high B.B. so easy to swap to 650bx50 also. True Temper lugged steel, and quality paint. Trek was legit before the TIG welding.
funny...cause i broke out my '86 raleigh team to ride into work today.
old bike monday.
nice.
about darn time.
p.s. - i dont like skinwalls though. i'm a real heretic that way. i roll 130mm modern'ish wheels and only black on black on black on black when it comes to tires.
Oooh Snobbie, what a ride!! Drysdale! Yummy. I have a Dick Power from the 50s/early 60s, not my size. But the stuff in my size has been sadly languishing. Need to get out there.
I can't tell the Stronglight 63 from the 57 one of which is on there...
Blogger BikeSnobNYC said... That's how they did bikes back then
Who said that? Pro Freds have the same seat to bars drop since, pretty much forever. Doesn't your Milwaukee have a horizontal top tube? No reason why the drop should be any different, maybe even less on the Milwaukee. The Drysdale is an old-timey race bike. I thought your rust-bucket Ritte was the "go-fast" bike, not the Milwaukee.
My Milwaukee does not have a level top tube, it's sloping, albeit mildly. Absolutely road bike fit has changed. Lots of seatpost showing is a relatively new thing. Bars are also way lower now than they were then as integrated shifting means riders spend much more time on the hoods, even pros.
Google "de Vlaeminck bike" then google "Sagan bike" then get back to me.
There is an appealing aesthetic to the early 80's steel bikes, usually with old-school Campy Super Record.
Then came triathletes, who brought around index shifting (because friction shifting, with its "just past, then back a hair" sensibility, was just simply beyond them), as well as garish neon paint schemes.
The world has never been the same.
Shifters migrated down on the bars, and bars migrated down to where the tops are now where the drops used to be, and the drops became mostly irrelevant altogether.
Carbon has its charms, but you sure can't engrave "Campy" all over it, or drill out your shifters until they looked like swiss cheese to save a few extra grams of weight.
Officious interlopers with nonexistent bike-handling skills f'ed up bike design for good.
Raise your hand if you or a close buddy has ever gone down in a group ride because some squirrely triathlete couldn't hold a line of otherwise control his bike in a pack.
Snobbums, we all appreciate your attempts to maintain some semblance of cycling sanity in this silly system of style and status and money and phoney baloney.
Snob's correct. This bike is from the early '60s or earlier. Tall, long frames were still common for many riders. One would think they would have figured out proper bike fit by then but, alas, no. Gotta lower the nose of that saddle, though.
Mr Tenovo, that's a splendid looking bike you have there. Have fun getting used to the "half-step" front derailleur (50/48?).
The handlebar looks as if somebody was dismayed by the way the brake levers drooped down, and twisted the handlebar around so that the hoods would be more or less where hoods are expected to be. Try twisting the handlebar back (clockwise if you're viewing from the right), so that the brake levers are unfamiliarly (and perversely?) low, using the drops as your default position, and braking from the drops. That's the way it was done back in the day, I believe.
Well try it for a short ride. Then feel free to change back if you can't get used to it.
@Steve Barner 9:04pm, maybe you want to lower your nose. The saddle is level where one would sit toward the rear. Older leather saddles do develop a concave (sagged) shape and must be adjusted to “feel”.
Nice bike. Can't wait to hear the whole story. Half-step gearing is great. Once you realize that 1) it reduces gear overlap a bunch, if not totally, and 2) it's easy once you shed yourself of the aversion to left hand shifting.
"In the days of 4- and 5-speed freewheels, 8- and 10-speed bikes were commonly set up with chainwheels that were very close in size, for instance, 46/49, or 47/50. When used with typical freewheels of the era, the difference between the two front gears was about half as large as the difference between adjacent gears on the freewheel. (One reason for this was that early front derailers couldn't handle much more than a 3-tooth difference reliably!) With half-step gearing, the larger shifts are made with the rear derailer, and the front is for fine tuning. This allows an 8- or 10-speed set up to have a reasonable range with fairly close spacing of the gears. One downside of half-step is that it uses all possible combinations, including those that run the chain at a fairly severe angle. This was not a big deal in an 8-speed rig, but is kind of marginal for 10-speeds. Another serious disadvantage is that every other shift in the normal sequence is a double shift (front and rear derailers simultaneously). These issues are largely overcome with modern handlebar-end index shifters and narrow-spaced cassettes, but half-step requires mixing and matching sprockets these days -- no manufacturer offers an appropriate ready-made cassette.
Half-step gearing is most suitable for riding in flat terrain, where shifting is rare. It allows finer gradations to get as close to the "ideal" gear for the particular wind conditions as possible, and a wide range with even spacing."
"Today's better chains, cassettes and indexing make half-step systems worth a second look
Today's narrow, flexible chains and narrow-spaced cassettes handle the chain angles fine with the 6 or 7 sprockets of a half-step system. A narrow-cage racing front derailer accommodates the small step between the outer and middle chainwheels. This derailer shifts better than derailers that must be used with wide-step triple chainwheels. An 11-13-16-19-23-28-34 tooth 7-speed cassette and (for example) 24-42-46 tooth chainrings achieve an extremely wide range with even, narrow steps. Shifting only the rear derailer gives reasonable steps when accelerating, unlike with a a multi-range system. There also is less dishing of the rear wheel than with an 8- or-9-speed cassette, for a stronger rear wheel. The outer and middle chainwheels are centered over the cassette, even when a granny chainwheel is installed, increasing cornering clearance and reducing the "Q factor".
You can always tell by the position of the levers how to shift to the next gear, without looking -- except, of course, with brake lever shifters that return to the same position after every shift. Indexed bar-end shifters or top-mount shifters are the ticket with half-step, making double shifts easy. The front lever usually isn't indexed, but positioning it by hand works fine, with only two or three steps.
Half-step gearing is most suitable for road riding, especially in flat terrain, where long distances must be covered in the same gear, allowing fine gradations to get closer to the ideal gear for the particular wind conditions. Half-step doesn't make much sense for choppy up-and-down off-road riding.
A half-step system today is definitely a tinkerer's project. No manufacturer offers an appropriate cassette -- so, it is necessary to mix and match sprockets. 7 sprockets can be installed on an 8/9/10 speed cassette body with a spacer, but only a shorter, older 7-speed cassette body lets you reduce dishing of the rear wheel. 8-speed Shimano bar-end shifters (which work with 7-speed spacing and a slight alternate cable routing) may be a special-order item. 8-speed chain works with 7 speeds,, it is widely available, and it is more robust than 9-speed chain.
[ OK I can't find the link nor exact quote, but he said something like ride the 2 of 3 sprockets on the outside of the cluster with the large chain ring, the the 2 or 3 on the inside with the small ring. Find one gear and stick to it. HTFU. ]
looks roughly like my bilenky. picked that up in 2015. it has the pump peg. it has bar ends and cantis but then so does my 20+ cannondale t700. bout the only thing i can think of is the 1 1/8 threadless stem.
oh, my red is better than your red. maybe the color is more modern
You are getting closer. The drop from saddle to the bar tops has not changed. Always has been and will be 2-3 inches, plus or minus depending on the exact rider. Old-timey riders were not ignorant of wind resistance as you may think they were.
The difference you perceive is being driven a sloping top tube. Classic Cycle's bike is too big if the saddle is in the pictured position. You should have at least a fist-full of seat pot with a horizontal top tube when the stem is slammed.
Google Gino Bartali 1934. Look at the first picture. Of him standing next to his bike wearing the black Aquila jersey.
And I don't know about your indexed shifters, but mine can be easily reached from the drops.
As far as how this bike fits me, I haven't even bothered to dial in the adjustments yet, but either way it's a 68 year-old bike I'm borrowing to have some fun with. Who gives a shit if it fits me perfectly or not?
I recommend you experiment with the tension settings of your sphincter.
What makes you think if I give 2 shits whether a bike fits you are not? Ride what you want to fucking ride.
But the fact remains, and relying on DM isn't your best bet, aerodynamics are not new and drop is drop. Google Major Taylor for fuck sake.
You need to get over yerself. It is wildly apparent you don't know shit about cycling history. Enjoy your old-timey bike, but you have nothing new to offer over old-timey Freds.
What makes me think you "give 2 shits" is you've been commenting here about it for like three days.
Bikes and the way we sit on them has changed over the past 100 years. This is in no way a controversial statement. And I know more about cycling, history, cycling history, and pretty much everything else in the world than you do until proven otherwise.
Podium?
ReplyDeletePodium?
ReplyDeleteHorizontal Top Tube. Yer goddamn right.
ReplyDeleteNew York to Washington, back to New York. Staying in New York or back to Washington?
ReplyDeleteLate 80s, early 90s. At least for cheap, quality road/touring/all around bikes. The Trek 750/520 around the turn of the 90s is a phenomenal, cheap all rounder. Fits 700x44s and has a high B.B. so easy to swap to 650bx50 also. True Temper lugged steel, and quality paint. Trek was legit before the TIG welding.
ReplyDeleteLooks taller than your own bikes (unless a really short wheel base is distorting the head tube length.)
ReplyDeleteSpentWayTooMuch...,
ReplyDeleteThat's how they did bikes back then, having a foot of seatpost showing is a very recent development.
--Wildcat Etc.
Does that bike pre-date the 50 year effort to get cars permanently out of all of Central Park?
ReplyDeleteThat goal will be achieved tomorrow at 7:00 PM.
You should bring the bike by.
Leroy,
ReplyDeleteBy 18 years!
--Tan Tenovo
A Proper Ride. Go, Snob, Go!
ReplyDeleteDear Tan Tenovo: I presume that you hail from Tenovo, Macedonia?
ReplyDeleteWhat are your thoughts upon renaming your country North Macedonia at the insistence of your Greek overlords?
funny...cause i broke out my '86 raleigh team to ride into work today.
ReplyDeleteold bike monday.
nice.
about darn time.
p.s. - i dont like skinwalls though. i'm a real heretic that way. i roll 130mm modern'ish wheels and only black on black on black on black when it comes to tires.
Ah Classic Cycles - fine coffee mug
ReplyDeleteWith all the running to make good on the one bicycle for 2018 rule BSNYC must be in killer shape ; )
ReplyDeletevsk said ...
ReplyDeleteOooh Snobbie, what a ride!! Drysdale! Yummy. I have a Dick Power from the 50s/early 60s, not my size. But the stuff in my size has been sadly languishing. Need to get out there.
I can't tell the Stronglight 63 from the 57 one of which is on there...
Awesome !
vsk
You’re a real tease, Tan Tenovo.
ReplyDeleteBlogger BikeSnobNYC said... That's how they did bikes back then
ReplyDeleteWho said that? Pro Freds have the same seat to bars drop since, pretty much forever. Doesn't your Milwaukee have a horizontal top tube? No reason why the drop should be any different, maybe even less on the Milwaukee. The Drysdale is an old-timey race bike. I thought your rust-bucket Ritte was the "go-fast" bike, not the Milwaukee.
Unknown,
ReplyDeleteMy Milwaukee does not have a level top tube, it's sloping, albeit mildly. Absolutely road bike fit has changed. Lots of seatpost showing is a relatively new thing. Bars are also way lower now than they were then as integrated shifting means riders spend much more time on the hoods, even pros.
Google "de Vlaeminck bike" then google "Sagan bike" then get back to me.
--Wildcat Etc.
There is an appealing aesthetic to the early 80's steel bikes, usually with old-school Campy Super Record.
ReplyDeleteThen came triathletes, who brought around index shifting (because friction shifting, with its "just past, then back a hair" sensibility, was just simply beyond them), as well as garish neon paint schemes.
The world has never been the same.
Shifters migrated down on the bars, and bars migrated down to where the tops are now where the drops used to be, and the drops became mostly irrelevant altogether.
Carbon has its charms, but you sure can't engrave "Campy" all over it, or drill out your shifters until they looked like swiss cheese to save a few extra grams of weight.
Officious interlopers with nonexistent bike-handling skills f'ed up bike design for good.
Raise your hand if you or a close buddy has ever gone down in a group ride because some squirrely triathlete couldn't hold a line of otherwise control his bike in a pack.
Oh, all of you? That's about what I figured.
Oh, and you kids get off of my lawn...
ReplyDeleteSnobbums, we all appreciate your attempts to maintain some semblance of cycling sanity in this silly system of style and status and money and phoney baloney.
ReplyDeleteLove the half-step gearing! I predict a come-back...
ReplyDeleteSnob's correct. This bike is from the early '60s or earlier. Tall, long frames were still common for many riders. One would think they would have figured out proper bike fit by then but, alas, no. Gotta lower the nose of that saddle, though.
ReplyDeleteMy Trek 330 looks similar. Circa 1989. Running Campy and Shimano. Smooth as silk.
ReplyDeleteMr Tenovo, that's a splendid looking bike you have there. Have fun getting used to the "half-step" front derailleur (50/48?).
ReplyDeleteThe handlebar looks as if somebody was dismayed by the way the brake levers drooped down, and twisted the handlebar around so that the hoods would be more or less where hoods are expected to be. Try twisting the handlebar back (clockwise if you're viewing from the right), so that the brake levers are unfamiliarly (and perversely?) low, using the drops as your default position, and braking from the drops. That's the way it was done back in the day, I believe.
Well try it for a short ride. Then feel free to change back if you can't get used to it.
Quite the variety of bikecycles you are getting in that stable of yours.
ReplyDeleteThere must be something lacking in my DNA because I never see someone else’s bikecyxle and think of ways they should adjust it.
ReplyDelete70’s quiz - which TV show had Mr Drysdale as the banker?
@Steve Barner 9:04pm, maybe you want to lower your nose. The saddle is level where one would sit toward the rear. Older leather saddles do develop a concave (sagged) shape and must be adjusted to “feel”.
ReplyDelete@PblackwallBateman 2:36pm, all tubular tires (sew-ups) were that natural color casing in 1960-70’s I believe.
ReplyDeleteFunny you should ask.
ReplyDeleteI still get a stiffie every time I hear the words "Jane Hathaway."
@vsk
ReplyDelete"I can't tell the Stronglight 63 from the 57 one of which is on there..."
That's a 57.
http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=e606468b-0afb-49f2-bed8-6b296fea207d
http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=a68d577d-91f6-4c34-859a-b4062c9f4bfa&Enum=115
Lord help Jethro if he runs into a Billy Yard
ReplyDeleteMy hand is up.
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm beginning to wonder if Grant Petersen occasionally comments here under a nom de plume.
Nice bike. Can't wait to hear the whole story. Half-step gearing is great. Once you realize that 1) it reduces gear overlap a bunch, if not totally, and 2) it's easy once you shed yourself of the aversion to left hand shifting.
ReplyDeleteDoubling down on the Mr Drysdale trivia, what were their first names (bike maker and the banker)?
ReplyDelete(And the banker is from a 60's TV show, not the 70's.)
Sheldon Brown Method:
ReplyDelete"In the days of 4- and 5-speed freewheels, 8- and 10-speed bikes were commonly set up with chainwheels that were very close in size, for instance, 46/49, or 47/50. When used with typical freewheels of the era, the difference between the two front gears was about half as large as the difference between adjacent gears on the freewheel. (One reason for this was that early front derailers couldn't handle much more than a 3-tooth difference reliably!)
With half-step gearing, the larger shifts are made with the rear derailer, and the front is for fine tuning. This allows an 8- or 10-speed set up to have a reasonable range with fairly close spacing of the gears. One downside of half-step is that it uses all possible combinations, including those that run the chain at a fairly severe angle. This was not a big deal in an 8-speed rig, but is kind of marginal for 10-speeds. Another serious disadvantage is that every other shift in the normal sequence is a double shift (front and rear derailers simultaneously). These issues are largely overcome with modern handlebar-end index shifters and narrow-spaced cassettes, but half-step requires mixing and matching sprockets these days -- no manufacturer offers an appropriate ready-made cassette.
Half-step gearing is most suitable for riding in flat terrain, where shifting is rare. It allows finer gradations to get as close to the "ideal" gear for the particular wind conditions as possible, and a wide range with even spacing."
John Allen method:
ReplyDelete"Today's better chains, cassettes and indexing make half-step systems worth a second look
Today's narrow, flexible chains and narrow-spaced cassettes handle the chain angles fine with the 6 or 7 sprockets of a half-step system. A narrow-cage racing front derailer accommodates the small step between the outer and middle chainwheels. This derailer shifts better than derailers that must be used with wide-step triple chainwheels. An 11-13-16-19-23-28-34 tooth 7-speed cassette and (for example) 24-42-46 tooth chainrings achieve an extremely wide range with even, narrow steps. Shifting only the rear derailer gives reasonable steps when accelerating, unlike with a a multi-range system. There also is less dishing of the rear wheel than with an 8- or-9-speed cassette, for a stronger rear wheel. The outer and middle chainwheels are centered over the cassette, even when a granny chainwheel is installed, increasing cornering clearance and reducing the "Q factor".
You can always tell by the position of the levers how to shift to the next gear, without looking -- except, of course, with brake lever shifters that return to the same position after every shift. Indexed bar-end shifters or top-mount shifters are the ticket with half-step, making double shifts easy. The front lever usually isn't indexed, but positioning it by hand works fine, with only two or three steps.
Half-step gearing is most suitable for road riding, especially in flat terrain, where long distances must be covered in the same gear, allowing fine gradations to get closer to the ideal gear for the particular wind conditions. Half-step doesn't make much sense for choppy up-and-down off-road riding.
A half-step system today is definitely a tinkerer's project. No manufacturer offers an appropriate cassette -- so, it is necessary to mix and match sprockets. 7 sprockets can be installed on an 8/9/10 speed cassette body with a spacer, but only a shorter, older 7-speed cassette body lets you reduce dishing of the rear wheel. 8-speed Shimano bar-end shifters (which work with 7-speed spacing and a slight alternate cable routing) may be a special-order item. 8-speed chain works with 7 speeds,, it is widely available, and it is more robust than 9-speed chain.
Jobst Brandt Method:
ReplyDelete[ OK I can't find the link nor exact quote, but he said something like ride the 2 of 3 sprockets on the outside of the cluster with the large chain ring, the the 2 or 3 on the inside with the small ring. Find one gear and stick to it. HTFU. ]
i donna no
ReplyDeletelooks roughly like my bilenky. picked that up in 2015. it has the pump peg. it has bar ends and cantis but then so does my 20+ cannondale t700. bout the only thing i can think of is the 1 1/8 threadless stem.
oh, my red is better than your red. maybe the color is more modern
Found the link to the Jobst Brandt quote.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason my work network is blocking this site, but I'm pretty sure this is a feminine perspective
ReplyDeleteWildcat, etc. @ 6:34pm
ReplyDeleteYou are getting closer. The drop from saddle to the bar tops has not changed. Always has been and will be 2-3 inches, plus or minus depending on the exact rider. Old-timey riders were not ignorant of wind resistance as you may think they were.
The difference you perceive is being driven a sloping top tube. Classic Cycle's bike is too big if the saddle is in the pictured position. You should have at least a fist-full of seat pot with a horizontal top tube when the stem is slammed.
Google Gino Bartali 1934. Look at the first picture. Of him standing next to his bike wearing the black Aquila jersey.
And I don't know about your indexed shifters, but mine can be easily reached from the drops.
Unknown,
ReplyDeleteNo, read this regarding pro bike fit.
As far as how this bike fits me, I haven't even bothered to dial in the adjustments yet, but either way it's a 68 year-old bike I'm borrowing to have some fun with. Who gives a shit if it fits me perfectly or not?
I recommend you experiment with the tension settings of your sphincter.
--Wildcat Etc.
Never half-step cos I ain’t a half-stepper / Drink a lotta soda so they call me Dr. Pepper
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think if I give 2 shits whether a bike fits you are not? Ride what you want to fucking ride.
ReplyDeleteBut the fact remains, and relying on DM isn't your best bet, aerodynamics are not new and drop is drop. Google Major Taylor for fuck sake.
You need to get over yerself. It is wildly apparent you don't know shit about cycling history. Enjoy your old-timey bike, but you have nothing new to offer over old-timey Freds.
Unknown,
ReplyDeleteWhat makes me think you "give 2 shits" is you've been commenting here about it for like three days.
Bikes and the way we sit on them has changed over the past 100 years. This is in no way a controversial statement. And I know more about cycling, history, cycling history, and pretty much everything else in the world than you do until proven otherwise.
--Tan Tenovo
Hell hath no fury, like Tan Tenovo responding to a non-believer.
ReplyDelete