tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post6761184723970932040..comments2024-03-18T07:59:30.743-04:00Comments on Bike Snob NYC: The Joy of Vehicular CyclingBikeSnobNYChttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11256142855437740163noreply@blogger.comBlogger95125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-81112416878959717362017-10-14T05:59:03.089-04:002017-10-14T05:59:03.089-04:00I recently rode my bicycle from Sofia in Bulgaria ...I recently rode my bicycle from Sofia in Bulgaria to Copenhagen in Denmark. This gave me the opportunity to see both the recent ex soviet solutions (which included sharing the road with trucks, farm vehicles and horse drawn carts, but also included some quite nice separated bike lanes because people can't afford cars or petrol to run them) and the mid range central European solutions through to the justly famous Copenhagen and Amsterdam. <br /><br />Interestingly bikes share the road with cars a lot in Amsterdam but the cars have priority. The rest of Holland has fabulous separate bicycle highways complete with overpass and tunnels. A more practical model for my home country of Australia and for the USA is probably Germany which has minimalist but still segregated bike lanes, no curbs, no lights, no painted bicycles just a strip of tarmac barely wide enough for two bikes to pass with a foot or two of dirt, or grass, or gravel between it and the road but that was enough. <br /><br />Denmark is a bit strange great separate bike lanes within each city but nothing on the roads between cities, which I assume is why a lot of rural Danish cyclists wear helmets.EmiGremlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03676105788408538373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-29537355873917376942017-10-11T21:19:17.708-04:002017-10-11T21:19:17.708-04:00Don't scoff at VC. The Viet Cong will kill you...Don't scoff at VC. The Viet Cong will kill you! And their secret weapon on the Ho Chi Minh Trail was the pack bicycle, capable of easily carrying 440 pounds: http://www.historynet.com/pedal-power-bicycles-in-wartime-vietnam.htmPaul Heckbertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-9971726769672560362017-10-11T11:05:47.678-04:002017-10-11T11:05:47.678-04:00Driverless cars are at least a decade or more away...Driverless cars are at least a decade or more away. Sure, the technology is developing rapidly but it's expensive. People aren't going to ditch their cars as soon as driverless cars are out (also, if that were to happen, good luck selling or trading in your obsolete car for any real amount of money). New laws and regulations will need to be written. Police departments will lose a lot of funding when they no longer need traffic enforcement. States and municipalities will lose revenue from traffic violations.<br /><br />I like the snark. I come to this blog for the snark. And I never remember BSNYC being about bike advocacy. Sometimes there is some mixed in there, but this is mainly about bikes, and fun, and making fun. Also, at no time has BSNYC ever said that having skills to ride in traffic isn't important. <br /><br />Bike infrastructure is great. You can carry on smugly on an other wise busy road during the morning/afternoon commute and mind your own business and have very little to worry about until the bike lanes run out, then you just get to play chicken with traffic.Bryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02332570158313833136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-45252406514136454782017-10-10T23:02:28.263-04:002017-10-10T23:02:28.263-04:00Since folks are coming by to check out the zombie ...Since folks are coming by to check out the zombie comments, here's a somewhat scary article about the difficulties that autonomous cars are having recognizing bikes: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/jun/14/street-wars-2035-cyclists-driverless-cars-autonomous-vehicles. <br /><br />Sure hope they sort that out before sending out tens of thousands of test vehicles onto our city streets! Oh wait... "The proposed House legislation would also permit each manufacturer to test as many as 100,000 robocars that don't quite meet federal standards..." https://www.wired.com/story/congress-autonomous-self-driving-car-regulations/<br /><br />Oh well.der blaue Reiternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-20484075965389524902017-10-10T17:08:20.128-04:002017-10-10T17:08:20.128-04:00Snarkyness aside The VC video and concepts are not...Snarkyness aside The VC video and concepts are not terrible, just dated and out of touch. <br />I personally reject the idea that bicycles be treated as cars, It seems like we get all the responsibilities and none of the perks! Newsflash streets and traffic Controls are designed for CARS (& motor vehicles in general). That being the case it's moronic to use your bicycle as if it's a car! Your bicycle doesn't have "crumple zones" (unless you count your scranus), Bumpers (unless you count your foam hat) OR 15 airbags!! IF I tried to mingle with Cars as the video suggest I'd have been dead 20 years ago. <br />The first step is for cyclist to embrace the fact that they are NOT motor vehicles AND for motorists to except the fact that Cyclist aren't self destructive lunatics and careless law breakers! Cyclist have more incentive to be "safe" then anyone, but just as I don't believe that everyone should drive the same way, we will never get all cyclist to ride the same. <br />The main difference that cycling infrastructure makes is that it encourages people to ride; it basically says "hey, you can do this and there's a place for you right here" the increase in safety comes with the increase of riders. We have bike share bikes multiplying like Tribbles around here and ridership is UP, but the main benefit to me has been increasing awareness to cyclists in general.<br />Driverless cars increasing Bicycle safety? What!? Fact is we would already have driverless cars if there were no bicycles, because most driverless programs don't know how to process the movement of cyclist on the street. The advent of driverless cars will = an immediate spike in cyclist fatalities. Driverless cars are the future though; Why? MONEY! <br />To me painting a few lines on the street is not infrastructure, it's a cop out. True Pedestrain and cycling infrastructure doesn't just increase ridership and reduce cars, it also spikes property values along those routes which in turn means Tax revenue down @ City Hall. Most big cities are pushing Bike infrastructure not so much because they want to, but because they have to! There's only so many freeways you can build. Civil planners will tell you that replacing a 3 lane highway with a 5 lane highway has little long term positive impact on traffic, because as soon as you increase capacity, it just encourages people to move further into the suburbs and drive more.<br /><br />No actually, what's going to help cyclist and motorists both is more & more people working from home. Yeah, The Internet is going to be the commuters best friend!!! - masmojo Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-85191256422524493462017-10-10T16:36:35.393-04:002017-10-10T16:36:35.393-04:00Not sure how this fits into the shade being thrown...Not sure how this fits into the shade being thrown all around but I can say that up here in America's toque we have seen a significant increase in the on-street bikecycling following the installation of protected bike lanes in the downtown core of Edmonton. It would stand to reason that the increase in usage opens up more riders to collisions with vehicles especially in the right hook scenario. Saying that bicycle infrastructure puts riders at risk due to the increase seems misleading. As both a cyclist and driver I am very aware of my surroundings and particularly conscious of cyclist both in bike lanes and also riding in traffic. boys on the hoodshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16601773716239741994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-79729950418977337112017-10-10T16:32:23.830-04:002017-10-10T16:32:23.830-04:002:12 seconds and standard Forester speak starts= ...2:12 seconds and standard Forester speak starts= Any other method of riding is dangerous. He also refers to bikes as toys. There is a reason why cyclists hate Forester and his flying minions.Duncan Watsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01363433039416687609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-58091570389612744422017-10-10T13:58:14.642-04:002017-10-10T13:58:14.642-04:00Burn the heretics!Burn the heretics!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-24585551389203222312017-10-10T00:22:56.293-04:002017-10-10T00:22:56.293-04:00Quick PS after reading the blog reply to the LA Ti...Quick PS after reading the blog reply to the LA Times piece: if that guy's a "wordsmith" then i must not have the grasp i thought i did on either concept... yeech!Blau wird gerittennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-55039857296533754472017-10-10T00:00:34.578-04:002017-10-10T00:00:34.578-04:00Anonymous says it like it is... I'm so glad th...Anonymous says it like it is... I'm so glad those were only empty threats about not reading this blog anymore, Anonymous!<br /><br />Snob, maybe you could add a new sidebar to highlight comments threads like this that simply refuse to die... are there others? Probably more readers would appreciate the tip about the LA Times piece. (thanks for the roundabout advice to just go straight there.)der Reiter ist blaunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-48133882423107893672017-10-09T23:30:31.814-04:002017-10-09T23:30:31.814-04:00I'm not sure what bike-splaining means.
I ask...I'm not sure what bike-splaining means.<br /><br />I asked if anyone could share some before/after data on separated bike lanes cause I'm interested in the safety of different types of bicycle infrastructure. You responded that it's out there, so I looked for it and found some. I'll move this discussion of NYC bicycle infrastructure to another forum.<br /><br />You should've seen me during my disco phase.<br /><br />And I'll keep sticking up for Forester, respectfully.Triciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00662231851087184682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-30077911026444753332017-10-09T16:42:43.485-04:002017-10-09T16:42:43.485-04:00You should go ahead and lock the comments now.
I ...You should go ahead and lock the comments now.<br /><br />I rode with a leather hair net and cutoffs in 1971. I read a lot about cycling safely, took most of all that to heart, sensible, works. Then in the 80s, found myself living in europe, and holy carp! Cycling infrastructure for realz! In a land whers everybody rides, drivers are required to know what tge heck they are doing, they have lots of infrastructure, and still folks ride mopeds, hauling a trailer full of tools , drinking a beer, down the railroad-shared multiuse path, and no one whines and cries about it! Could it possibly be that they know what the heck they are doing? <br />I come back home in the late 80s, and aside from informal 'club' rides, pretty much stop. Riding here sucks. But it's getting better in spite of, not because of the vc devotees. Couple of years ago, was in norway and denmark for a bit, then down into switzerland. <br /><br />Sigh.<br /><br />Yeah, these ride safely tips are great. But aside from the uk, with it's own john (franklin) the rest of industrialized world uses bicycles, all the time, everywhere, and has infra to accomodate that. These vcs, regardless of which sect, will *never* accept this.<br />How it is.<br />Stop paying attention.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-81517611232426617742017-10-09T15:10:55.489-04:002017-10-09T15:10:55.489-04:00Principled Paragmatist,
I realize you're reso...Principled Paragmatist,<br /><br />I realize you're resolute in your delusion so go forth in your hi-viz vest and prosper. If you ever actually try riding in any of these places let me know.<br /><br />--Wildcat Etc.BikeSnobNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256142855437740163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-89713264758638678582017-10-09T14:28:25.465-04:002017-10-09T14:28:25.465-04:00I've seen that how they got there video. It g...I've seen that how they got there video. It glosses over that the Netherlands had a huge cycling society in the early 20th century. Yes, the amount of cycling dipped considerably when motoring arrived, but the base was there - a society of people who had bikes and had used bikes heavily for transportation, and that history was instrumental in creating societal support for replacing motoring with bicycling there again. They also over-emphasize the role that infrastructure played in encouraging cycling again, and play down all of the anti-motoring initiatives enacted there, from getting rid of parking and raising parking prices, to closing roads and entire sections to cars, and enormous gas and car taxes. Not to mention that car use was always relatively difficult and expensive there, due to high density, small streets, etc. Those conditions do not exist anywhere in America, except maybe Davis, California which had high bike modal use (25%ish) in the early 60s before any of their now famous bike lanes were created. That high bike modal use, by the way, was obviously not created by infrastructure - but by prohibiting motoring on the university campus there.<br /><br />The bottom line is "regular people" choose biking over motoring only when the economics and hassle of motoring are made such that biking becomes relatively preferable. Only then do they start demanding separate infrastructure, but it's not the infrastructure that gets them out of the cars and onto the bikes. Not in the Netherlands, not in Davis, not anywhere. Not to any significant degree. Don't be fooled into thinking it is.<br />Principled Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02821076135942791400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-54793091709621757162017-10-09T12:27:16.717-04:002017-10-09T12:27:16.717-04:00Principled Pragmatist,
New York City infrastructu...Principled Pragmatist,<br /><br />New York City infrastructure makes things demonstrably safer. Of course it should be continually refined, they continually refine their infrastructure in the Netherlands as well. And guess what? The Dutch did not "have such a society" either. You seem adept at googling places you know nothing about, so I suggest googling how they got where they are today.<br /><br />Your insistence that the US will never arrive at good infrastructure but that as soon as we hit the "on" switch on autonomous cars everything will be solved instantly is, quite frankly, utterly moronic.<br /><br />--Wildcat Etc.BikeSnobNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256142855437740163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-71497732688272339642017-10-09T12:16:14.067-04:002017-10-09T12:16:14.067-04:00People can and do debate the role the design of th...People can and do debate the role the design of the infrastructure had in the Hurley case because the truck turned left from the far right lane, but the idea of channeling through bike traffic into a lane where only left turning motor traffic is expected seems quite obviously to be an unsafe design. That was the point I was trying to convey by referencing that article, in support of my larger point that the infrastructure we typically get in this country (for a variety of reasons) often results in a worse situation for cyclists than no infrastructure. Separation of bikes from cars may seem like a great idea, until the paths of cyclists and motorists must intersect. Unless you have a society like the Dutch do that is dedicated to managing all of these conflicts with great care, it just doesn't work well, and can be deadly. We don't have such a society.Principled Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02821076135942791400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-49663551596288937812017-10-09T00:27:39.344-04:002017-10-09T00:27:39.344-04:00Marc Caruso,
Hey, thanks for sharing the LA Times...Marc Caruso,<br /><br />Hey, thanks for sharing the LA Times piece, it was quite good. Too bad I had to wade through a lame blog post to find it.<br /><br />--Wildcat Rock Machine<br /><br />BikeSnobNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256142855437740163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-26414310796842737802017-10-09T00:04:14.223-04:002017-10-09T00:04:14.223-04:00Here is a response to you critique of Forester it ...Here is a response to you critique of Forester it was published several days before your blog in response to another attack on Forester by the Los Angeles time. Don't worry this response won't bore you it is published by a true wordsmith that could put you to shame. https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/tag/john-forester/<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07137357399588107771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-38729996690634449092017-10-08T23:57:41.327-04:002017-10-08T23:57:41.327-04:00Anyone know where I can get a bottle of disco oil?...Anyone know where I can get a bottle of disco oil?hotdoghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11004132005043716582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-29819203419239199482017-10-08T23:39:03.049-04:002017-10-08T23:39:03.049-04:00Hey Snob, i hope you're enjoying your weekend,...Hey Snob, i hope you're enjoying your weekend, and i wonder: do you need to keep engaging these comments because of the new moderation function? I seriously thought i would have been the last comment in the thread since i didn't get to check in until days after your post, but here the battle still rages... well regardless, thanks for fighting the good fight! I'm tempted to go into the archives and start telling you that you need to show the Bianchi Pista some respect... "it's been 10 years, why would i start now" Ha ha ha that's entertainment! But seriously, you've already said like three times that you support skills and you agree that infrastructure isn't a magic bullet, and they don't quit pushing? They're assholes!der blaue Reiternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-75558196686485073212017-10-08T21:26:08.628-04:002017-10-08T21:26:08.628-04:00> I have studies from Berlin, Helsinki, Amsterd...> I have studies from Berlin, Helsinki, Amsterdam and Copenhagen showing how their infrastructure increases crash rates.<br /><br />Yep, the whole "kinder mort" thing and subsequent change of direction has resulted in wholesale carnage, if only those Europeans hadn't wasted all that money on cycling infrastructure it'd be a utopia of hi-viz helmeted vehicular cycling with not an injury in sight. Reminds me of this drivel...<br /><br />http://drawingrings.blogspot.sg/2012/04/no-cycling-is-not-safer-in-britain-than.htmlGet in the ditchnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-22297704825754946182017-10-08T20:51:36.606-04:002017-10-08T20:51:36.606-04:00Marc Caruso,
Wow, Marc Caruso sure likes putting ...Marc Caruso,<br /><br />Wow, Marc Caruso sure likes putting words in my mouth.<br /><br />Hard to pick a dumbest Marc Caruso paragraph written by Marc Caruso but I'll go with this one:<br /><br /><i>Most but not all infrastructure creates more problems then it solves. And Bikesnob fails to point out the social and financial cost of infrastructure. Not all streets are wide enough to support infrastructure. land rights have to be bought unless eminent domain is used and that opens a whole other can of worms and will really spark incivility.</i><br /><br />Yeah, lots of land buying and eminent domain-ing going on for bike lanes. <br /><br />--Wildcat Etc.BikeSnobNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256142855437740163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-45317613581971565442017-10-08T20:14:07.626-04:002017-10-08T20:14:07.626-04:00So Bikesnob seemed to think people dress funny ba...So Bikesnob seemed to think people dress funny back in 1979 maybe they did I don't know I was 1 in 1979. But when I look at the pictures from back then I guess it is true. Clothing fads come and go and we might laugh when we see how people dressed 40 years ago. But to fault the video for having people wear what people normally worn 40 years ago. The video was done on a college campus the actors were not paid much if anything so their wardrobe was their own clothes. <br /><br />Next BikeSnob crosses the line and starts attacking the principles of vehicular cycling or bicycle driving. Insisting instead that we need infrastructure infrastructure. and Referring to those of us that would rather drive our bikes as Freds. I don't know where the term Fred came from or how it got a bad rep. But I think it should be a good thing. One of the greatest cycling advocates of all time is named Fred Oswald. <br /><br />But BikeSnob doesn't stop their he pushes the 8 to 80 crap about how all we need to do is copenhagenize the whole country but He doesn't advocate a full copenhagenization. Which would involve lowering speed limits. Changing right of way laws and a more comprehensive motor vehicle operators privilege test and training and also forcing all current and new drivers to complete such training before they could continue having or get that privilege. <br /><br />Most but not all infrastructure creates more problems then it solves. And Bikesnob fails to point out the social and financial cost of infrastructure. Not all streets are wide enough to support infrastructure. land rights have to be bought unless eminent domain is used and that opens a whole other can of worms and will really spark incivility. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07137357399588107771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-14568851130922544552017-10-08T19:38:54.828-04:002017-10-08T19:38:54.828-04:00Tricia,
Thank you for bike-splaining my own city ...Tricia,<br /><br />Thank you for bike-splaining my own city for me.<br /><br />Principled Pragmatist,<br /><br />The driver who killed Kelly Hurley cut across four lanes of traffic to make a left turn. Using her to further your argument that we shouldn't have bike infrastructure is not only extraordinarily tasteless, but also goes to show how ridiculous your video in which all drivers behave predictably is. But nice job googling for tragedies in a city you know nothing about.<br /><br />--Wildcat Etc.BikeSnobNYChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11256142855437740163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4213956784784062266.post-5617404974912036812017-10-08T16:24:17.080-04:002017-10-08T16:24:17.080-04:00Not quite. There WILL (not might) be driverless c...Not quite. There WILL (not might) be driverless cars much sooner (not just soon) than significant and truly good infra that will make a real difference can be built. In the meantime we'll get... well, see STG's second paragraph, and worse (https://patch.com/new-york/east-village/nyc-cyclists-condemn-intersection-design-after-kelly-hurleys-death), under the false premise that "anything [crappy] is better than nothing".<br /><br />New Amsterdam is no Amsterdam.<br /><br />Principled Pragmatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02821076135942791400noreply@blogger.com