Tuesday, October 14, 2014

BSNYC Field Trip: L'Eroica!


Buonjovi!

As promised, I have finally penned ("penned" is pretentious for "typed") a detailed account of my trip to Tuscany for L'Eroica, and you can read it over here on the Brooks blog:


If you've got a problem with having to make one extra click to read today's post, please feel free to vent in the comments below--or, better yet, write your comment on a small piece of paper, roll it up tightly, and insert it right up your...handlebar end.

Speaking of traditional saddles made of natural materials, a lot of riders are skipping the saddle and seatpost altogether and simply riding on corks now:

Looks comfy.

In any case, please enjoy what is without a doubt the greatest cycling travelogue in the history of literature, and I'll see you all back here tomorrow where I'll share a delicious seasonal recipe for warm pumpkin salad with polenta and candied pumpkin seeds.

Yours etc.,


--Wildcat Rock Machine


155 comments:

McFly said...

L'Erotica looks fun. I am jelly of your lifestyle.

McFly said...

I may start my own Marvel comic themed ride and call it..................L'Heroica.

Anonymous said...

Podium!

Anonymous said...

Podium

Anonymous said...

Top 4!!!

Anonymous said...

early!

cycle

CommentatorBot9000 said...

As another commentator said previously, the beauty of the Tuscan countryside appears to have (mostly) knocked the snark clean out of the Snob.

James said...

damn. missed while reading the Brooks blog about l'Eroica.

Anonymous said...

Top Ten?

Anonymous said...

bullocks!

Bryan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bryan said...

You almost got me with the delicious recipe. I read that yesterday! I'll give you a pass though for all of the pictures. Definitely put L'Eroica on my bucket list

L'Blog Drafter said...

"voluminous peasant shirts"

Damn!

Twob Rake said...

I am pretending to not be jealous.
A pleasure to read about it.
Photographs gorgeous too.

Larry and Heather said...

Loved it! Oh, and your description too.

recumbent conspiracy theorist said...

Checked out the Brooks blog post. Nice. Looks like the weather was great. Glad you had a nice time.

Put a cork in it.

mikeweb said...

Morning Cork wood.

JB said...

I don't have a problem with the extra click. The problem is that I read it yesterday. It's BIG problem, I tell ya.

JLRB said...

Great - now I am starving

CommieCanuck said...

Ya'll thought I was kidding about Canadian Cranksgiving.

grog said...

Top Hundred. Click.

Anonymous said...

vsk said...

Top something!

vsk

Freddy Murcks said...

From the wine cork seat, I followed the link to the instructable for making a "beer view mirror." http://www.instructables.com/id/Beer-view-mirror/ As though sporting a helmet mirror doesn't already make you look like a complete tool, spending hours building one yourself completes the picture.

Anonymous said...

Tragic

http://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/celebrity/swedish-model-badly-hurt-in-new-york-bike-accident/ar-BB99n0v

cycle

leroy said...

Well this explains a lot.

Told my dog that "Leroy" and "L'Eroica" share etymologies.

He told me to stick a cork in it.

Now I see what he meant.

Welcome back!

crosspalms said...

Mmm, candied pumpkin seeds. Can't wait. Meanwhile, I have this craving for salami...

Euro Spondee said...

Snob wouldn't be the first Yankee to go over to Europe and get all misty-eyed, forgetting his mean streets attitude in the face of older civilisations...

sTONEdEADLAND said...

Hey, that cork'd bieke seems to be in the same "bloody stool" colorway as my Steamroller - alright!

dana said...

Your 'baggage still going around the carousel' comment will be with me always. God bless!

Fred of the Sea said...

I think what shifted the tone from snarky to insipid in the L'Heroica piece was the commercial "venue". As in, "ven you" write for a purveyor of expensive and stylishly "authentic" lifestyle accoutrements, you lose your entertainment value and social relevance and read like an airline magazine. However, the trip looked like fun and I suppose I might have done the same thing under the circumstances.

Anonymous said...

TOOS LOW!

BikeSnobNYC said...

Fred of the Sea,

Yeah, Brooks is so corporate.

Use the cut-and-paste function on your handmade computer and read it in the anarchist word processing program of your choice.

--Wildcat Rock Machine

PS: Who owns Blogger again?

JLRB said...

Snob - Does it rhyme with Bugle?

Fred of the Sea said...

I have nothing against corporate (for present purposes, at least) and the size of a commercial entity is only loosely correlated with its sensitivity about its image.. I just thought the piece lacked what I value and admire about most of your writing and thought I understood the reason. Now, of course, it's possible that nothing worthy of biting and satyrical insight occurred on your sojourn. If so, so be it.

BikeSnobNYC said...

Fred of the Sea,

I don't think you understand my writing either, but thanks for going way out of your way to break my balls in a remarkably petty manner.

--Wildcat Rock Machine

Fred of the Sea said...

You're welcome.

One of the most frustrating things about communicating is the inability, ultimately, to do anything about motes and beams in the eye of the beholder. I will continue to enjoy reading and misunderstanding your work, I'm sure.

trololo said...

Here's the video version of the eventlog for the TL;DR crowd:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6NQn-LToYY

frilly said...

Oh I'm a total bread head & that picture of the guy pouring olive oil over that big bowl of bread got my carousel spinning. Sans baggage of course. But still an hour before lunchtime--not fair!

1904 Cadardi said...

Fred 'O

Any (every?) description of L'Eroica probably reads somewhat like an article from an airline magazine, all accolades and wonderfulness, because it is. Truly. It's lots of people gathering to ride old bikes through postcard perfect countryside while eating good food and drinking excellent Chianti. What's not to like?

Do it and see for yourself.

You did get the bit about the rotting brake hoods right?

babble on said...

I miss the knickers, Frillster.

And I am oh so not going to say a thing about how airplanes (the kind that fly you to Italy to participate in theg greatest rides of all time) might be considered one of the greatest GADGETS of all times. Nope. De nada.

Besides. I'm prolly just jelly, too, after all. Podium kisses McFly. XX

Fred of the Sea said...

Cadardi, Allow me to be the first to propose that my cynicism is colored by envy.

BikeSnobNYC said...

Fred of the Sea @ 12:22pm,

Don't forget ignorance.

--Wildcat Rock Machine

Fred of the Sea said...

OK, ignorance too. As even the great Donald Rumsfeld had to admit, "there are unknown unknowns".

3G said...

I really wonder how much $ those boat owners have made on a cash for click basis. Their web traffic analysis must be amazing!

babble on said...

Oh! And snobberdooders, I forgot to thank you for providing such a great forum for talking turkey and babbling on...

Anonymous said...

Enjoyed the piece - as usual. The pissing, moaning and self-promoting in the comments, not so much.

Anonymous said...

snobby snobby snobby
can't you see
somehow your words just hipnotize me

now that i've got that out of my system: i purchased your book recently in tate modern. Thats right - Kazimir Malevich and BikeSnob under one roof. It said there will be stickers. There were no stickers. Somehow i am not surprised at your deceptive tactics :P

Charlie said...

Looks terrific. I'd love to go one day.

I'm curious if the participant group really as uniform, culturally-speaking, as it appears?

Anonymous said...

one day ?

all that bloviation for just one day of bikey cyclation?

wle

Serial Retrogrouch said...

...snob, you jumped the shark??? did eric make you do it?

Anonymous said...

Hey now, Fred of the Sea apologized. Let's cut him some slack.

You however, spelling color with a u.
I know it's a proper English blog, but what he bloody hell?!

PBateman said...

Snob,

out of curiosity, do you remember how much they were asking for one of those complete bianchis or similar at the parts fair? like ballpark? in american dollars please, not in diminuative salami units.

-CuriousinFlorida

PBateman said...

Snob,
also, i know there are cyclocross bikes from pre-1987 - would you have preferred something with slightly wider tyres, or did your skinnies do just fine?

i mean, i've ridden on gravel on my road bike many times, but not 100 miles worth

Anonymous said...

Looks like a fun ride. I liked the article. Not sure I agree with the bike choice, buy maybe that was the best option. It did look like a sausage fest in more ways then one though.

Anonymous said...

Look at the Snob sparring in the comment section. He must have brought summa dat Italian fiestyness back from Tuscany with him.

crosspalms said...

Well I've read everything here and everything at Brooks about this bike ride, but not a word about Erica. Is she the "minx" in the Brooks photo? The woman in the pale green sweater in your "speeches" photo? She must be pretty special to have a bike ride named after her but no, not a word. Did Eric swear you to secrecy or something? I enjoyed the vicarious trip, but I expect more. I remember when this blog used to be etc., etc., etc...

Dooth said...

Nice work on the travelogue, Wildcat. As an old-timey bike enthusiast, in lieu of salami, I ate my heart out.

Cycologist said...

"write your comment on a small piece of paper, roll it up tightly, and insert it right up your...handlebar end."

Sooo Premium Rush ;)

Everbody said...

I cork my handlebar ends, doesn't everybody?

Angry Beaver in Miramichi said...

Couldn't snob lead an Erotic Tour of Brooklyn and Queens? Kind of like a Pub Crawl, but instead hitting sex toy shops.

Bama Phred said...

These Fly 6 travelogues are always great, and being able to enjoy L'Eroica is really just that much better. It's like going there, without the jet lag and spending money part. Except that I now have a vintage bike itch

Angry Beaver in Miramichi said...

All the way to Italy and not a single picture of Roman Ruins. Living in NYC Snob must be used to seeing ruins making him nonplussed to encountering ruins. The photo of the guy with the bull head, is that the statue of Saint Cipo, Patron Saint of Guys Hung Like Bulls?

gE said...

I only have one complaint about your Brooks blog post: It lacks a comment from a cranky Brit about how he prefers verbiage to all those crappy pictures, or something along those lines. I guess the Brooks blog regulars (the commenty ones anyway) have blacklisted you now.

BikeSnobNYC said...

PBateman,

A road bike is perfect.

--Wildcat Rock Machine

trama said...

COOL RIDE

Looks kinda like northern california, except without the pavement, SUVs, and wankers (amIright JB?).

The FLY6 cam has the fringe-effect of making all those cool old bikes look like the ones you see around campuses, ya know, like they ran straight into a curb at speed and shoved the forks backward, buckling the top and downtubes.

JLRB said...

If a picture is worth a thousand words that is quite the 72,000 (plus actual words) word essay.

(Yes I did)

recumbent conspiracy theorist said...

I'm trying to get the jump on the ingredients list so I can follow right along tomorrow from the kitchen. Should I be looking for pie pumpkins exclusively or will the regular old jack o' lantern type of pumpkin suffice?

That guy from Colorado said...

OK - now for the real question everyone wants to know - did you smoke weed in italy

shining trapezoid said...

Wait, what? I thought it was L'Erotica.
Sell out.
Buried at sea.
Smoke weed.

crosspalms said...

Anybody want some more "I almost got hit by a bike and now I'm writing about it in the paper" blather? That's what I thought, so I won't link to it. But here's a sensible response.

JLRB said...

You convinced me to do the ride some day - is this bike vintagey enough?

Now find a fucking wine cellar and wear bike clothes in it!

Anonymous said...

Great pix and prose Mr Snob!

I was wondering how it is to deal with the jet lag and all the logistics then do a big ride ... with frikkin hills no less. That freewheel did not look like it had gearing amenable to climbing.
I have a couple of bikes I would definitely like to try it on. Transport is a pain. Plus my lack of $$ and legs conspire against me.

Anybody "over there" would look at my heft and say "Ay we no gotta bika fa you".

I'll read more Classic Ron Day Voo and go to the B.V.V.W. meeting this Thursday, listen to some more accounts and soak up the vintagee-ness.
Kind of L'AutoEroica.

vsk / riding on Strada Negri

semi serious cyclist said...

Fly on the sly at L'Eroica... like wearing a groin camera at a Playboy mansion picnic. Bravissimo!

dop said...

fred of the sea-

I agree the story is sponsored by Brooks, so to speak, but the narrative didn't include any raves about their saddle & how it helped his scranus survive the strada bianchi (note to wrm...you gotta learn to suck up) It had it's quota of lovable crudity (eg the guy pumping a tire who looked like he was many respects from the fly 6 adventure with the Saturday Night Special bike in Riverdale. The post is a far cry from those rticles in outdoor adventure and fashion magazines that describe in great detail how to enjoy the products in the glossy ads.

dop said...

that should read...'the guy pumping a tire who looked like he was jerking off. It was no different in many respects etc

ArtW said...

Did Cipollini's "Italian Meat Celebrity" make an appearance as well?

ouabacher said...

Whenever the words don't fit the context, I always substitute, "jerking off", so, you're good.....comma

Anonymous said...

Seems to me like Fred of the Sea touched a nerve. Probably b/c he was speaking some truth.

BSYNC was using his Bicycling Mag / book deal tone, rather than the usual ultra-snark blog tone. Fair enough, guy's got to get paid somehow.

That said, I'm used to a blog where nothing and nobody escapes mockery. Then all of a sudden we're wearing wool jerseys and cramming salami into our cheeks without blinking an eye. Hmm.

Anyway, looks like a great time. I'm drinking from a Chianti-filled bidon as we speak

ouabacher said...

Welcome to the adult world

BikeSnobNYC said...

Anonymous 6:59pm,

No.

--Wildcat Rock Machine

Hanging Out In A Public Square said...

I bet that 'back in the day' il Duce would have won the L'Eroica, he being the fascist of riders.

Anonymous said...

When Cipo partook of L'eroica, there was a "hide the salami" stage.

bad boy of the north said...

welcome home bike snob.now I'm hungry...

dop said...

ouabacher..I tried your method on a passge from Scarlet letter...Hawthorne was never so witty and incisive

Anonymous said...

Thanks Rock Crusher, my favorite part was when everyone lost their chain. Wish I could go, I stayed home all summer for the 2nd year in a row. Did you pick up any souvenirs?

Styx said...



You see the world through your cynical eyes
You're a troubled young man I can tell
You've got it all in the palm of your hand
But your hand's wet with sweat and your head needs a rest
And you're fooling yourself if you don't believe it
You're killing yourself if you don't believe it

Why must you be such an angry young man
When your future looks quite bright to me
And how can there be such a sinister plan
That could hide such a lamb, such a caring young man
And you're fooling yourself if you don't believe it
You're killing yourself if you don't believe it

Get up, get back on your feet
You're the one they can't beat and you know it
Come on, let's see what you've got
Just take your best shot and don't blow it


paulb said...

WCRM, your closing lines are words to live by. Great job! Free drinks for life!

1904 Cadardi said...

WCRM,

Glad you enjoyed the ride.

Do you want to go back and slog out the long course?

Anonymous said...

Hanging out,

hahahahahahahahaha!

billy joel said...

There's a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working class ties and his radical plans
He refuses to bend, he refuses to crawl
And he's always at home with his back to the wall.
He's proud of the scars and the battles he's lost
He struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

Give a moment or two to the angry young man
With his foot in his mouth and his heart in his hand
He's been stabbed in the back, he's been misunderstood
It's a comfort to know his intentions are good
He sits in a room with a lock on the door
With his maps and his medals laid out of the floor
And he likes to be known as the angry young man.

I believe I've passed the age of consciousness and righteous rage,
I've found that just surviving was a noble fight
I once believed in causes too, had my pointless point of view
Life went on no matter who was right or wrong.

And there's always a place for the angry young man
With his fist in the air and his head in the sand
He's never been able to learn from mistakes
He can't understand why his heart always breaks
His honor is pure, and his courage as well
He's fair and he's true, and he's boring as hell
And he'll go to his grave as an angry old man.

There's a place in the world for the angry young man
With his working class ties and his radical plans
He refuses to bend, he refuses to crawl
And he's always at home with his back to the wall.
He's proud of the scars and the battles he's lost
He struggles and bleeds as he hangs on the cross
And he likes to be known as the angry young man

john osborne said...

bugger all of you

93 said...

92

Anonymous said...

Anyone else notice how "L'Eroica" can be rearranged to spell "'Ola Eric"?

I hope I'm not just remembering someone else's post - this is the wittiest I've felt in a long time.

john lennon said...

99

john lennon said...

number nine

nena said...

99 red balloons

jon lenin said...

number 9

ringo said...

oh untimely death

ben hogan said...

teeing it up

McFly said...

Benjamin?

ce said...

trama 2:49, the Tuscan landscape looks a lot like the wine country around here in the Hunter Valley of New South Wales too - except you know, with authenticity. And, we don't have any of those public olive oil fountains that Snobbo pictured, to refill bidons from along the way.

Snobbo, happy for you. What a great event. Brooks are obviously evil, but they sure have class.

While on the themes of selling out to Big Steampunk and the wearing of woollen cycling garments... I've tried and tried again, but I just can't bring myself to wear my BSNYC wool cycling cap. Luckily, it fits my son, who's too young to know he looks like a gigantic dork, but Walz Caps, if you are reading, I would be liking to purchase an ironic BSNYC truckers cap, or if I must look like a gigantic dork, a Da Brim style helmet brim so I will at least be a gigantic dork without melanoma.

And this reminds me, there are a pair of "Department of Awesome" socks over on All Hail The Black Market that I need to order, because they are in fact awesome and will match my BSNYC truckers cap, and because Steve-o needs some beer money or something. Go buy a sticker from him.

Or, donate some money to the Ebola crisis if you must.

Or, buy a sticker and then donate some money to Ebola. Then, after all that, buy a new BSNYC novelty stuffed scranus for the missus. She'll love cuddling up to Snobbo's scranus.

JLRB said...

Mcfly - congrats on beeting the Beatles!

CE - are you sure it's the hat?

McFly said...

It's pronounced.....BEE-uls.

maxwell smart said...

99?

James said...

This morning's commute...
Rain,Skunk,flat. Could be worse. I could have drove.

JB said...

Hey guys, a writer writes to their audience. Metaphor: you would speak differently with the POTUS than with your bro-dogs down at the dive bar(R).

And just because one makes fun of retro-grouches, doesn't mean that it's not really fun to go full retro-grouch and ride around Yurp's undercarriage and drink wine. I kind of thought much of this weblog was about making fun bicycle culture, of which we are a part. You know, laughing at ourselves. Maybe not, though.

xotik said...

Hey, whatever stiffens yer top tube but like the others have said, that doesn't seem too erotic. I think the word is exotic.

Anyway, three cheers for wooly underpants!

Yeah Cleveland! said...

COD to "hanging out in a public square". Too funny.

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Aulia Herbal said...

pengobatan wasir sembuh dengan herbal :
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Aulia Herbal said...

obat wasir stadium 1 2 3 4 murah :
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Aulia Herbal said...

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Aulia Herbal said...

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jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir jamu wasir obat wasir tanpa operasi

Aulia Herbal said...

obat wasir tradisional alami aman
obat wasir stadium 1 2 3 4 murah
pengobatan wasir sembuh dengan herbal
obat herbal atau operasi wasir
mengenal wasir
stadium wasir
tipe dan gejala wasir
obat wasir internal
obat wasir dan diagnosa wasir
perbedaan wasir dan ambeien
jamu wasir
obat oles wasir
obat wasir apotik
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obat manjur wasir kronis
obat wasir tradisional
iklan obat wasir
obat wasir tradisional untuk ibu
obat ampuh untuk wasir akut
obat wasir tanpa operasi
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Aulia Herbal said...

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Aulia Herbal said...

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Obat Terbaik untuk Mengobati Infeksi Kutil di Kemaluan
Obat untuk Mengobati Kumpulan Kutil di Kemaluan
Obat Ampuh untuk Mengobati Kumpulan Kutil di Kemaluan

Waspadai 5 Komplikasi Diabetes Melitus said...

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Penyebab Ambeien Dan Cara Mengatasinya Tanpa Operasi said...

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Saras Seksi said...

Pengobatan Kutil Kelamin Kutil kelamin merupakan salah satu penyakit seksual menular yang paling umum, yang disebabkan oleh human papillomavirus (HPV) Pengobatan Penyakit Kutil Kelamin

Obat Ambeien Ambeien atau wasir memang tak banyak orang tahu penyebab dan gejala-gejala ambeien. Ambeien dalam bahasa inggris disebut hemoroid. Hemoroid adalah pelebaran pada pembuluh balik ( vena ) atau pembengkakan submukosa pada bagian bagian rektrum dan anus Obat Ambeien di Apotik

Obat Wasir Secara anatomi, penyakit wasir bukanlah suatu penyakit, melainkan suatu perubahan pada bantalan pembuluh-pembuluh darah di anus (dalam bahasa latin disebut cortus cavernosa resti) Obat Wasir Parah

Keluar Nanah dari Kemaluan Kencing nanah pada pria biasanya dialami oleh seorang suami. Suami yang mengidap kencing nanah pada pria bukan tidak tahu kalau dirinya mengidap kencing nanah atau gonorrhea. Keluar Nanah dari Sekitar Kemaluan

Obat Sipilis Sifilis atau raja singa adalah infeksi yang disebabkan oleh bakteri yang bernama Treponema pallidum. Obat Sipilis Alami

Kemaluan Bernanah _ Pengobatan penyakit gonore atau kemaluan bernanah yang aman dan tanpa rasa sakit adalah pengobatan yang tidak melibatkan jarum suntik dan tidak melibatkan obat-obatan yang mengandung zat kimia Penyebab Kemaluan Bernanah

Obat Kanker Serviks Stadium Lanjut _ Pengobatan terhadap kanker serviks tergantung pada beberapa faktor. Misalnya stadium kanker, usia pasien, keinginan untuk memiliki anak, kondisi medis lain Jual Obat Kanker Serviks Stadium Lanjut

Obat Kanker Usus Besar _ Resiko terserang kanker Usus Besar (Kanker Colon) menjadi semakin tinggi dengan bertambahnya usia seseorang . Pada umumnya dunia kedokteran, berdasarkan data-data statistik, berpendapat ancaman terserang Kanker Usus Besar mulai terjadi pada usia 40 tahun keatas Jual Obat Kanker Usus Besar

Anonymous said...

good
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Herbal de nature said...

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obat herbal kutil kelamin said...

terima kasih, artikelnya bagus dan bermanfaat...
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Herbal de nature said...


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obat gonore herbal said...

very nice post, i certainly love this website, keep on it
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obat herbal denature said...

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obat herbal denature said...

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tyler durden said...

Thanks....hopefully this article can be useful for the visitors.
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obat kutil kelamin yang alami said...

Thank You dear....hopefully this article can be useful for the visitors.
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obat kutil kelamin yang alami said...

WONDERFUL Post.thanks for share..more wait .. …
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obat kutil kelamin yang alami said...

An impressive share, I just given this onto a colleague who was doing a little analysis on this. And he in fact bought me breakfast because I found it for him.. smile. So let me reword that: Thnx for the treat! But yeah Thnkx for spending the time to discuss this, I feel strongly about it and love reading more on this topic. If possible, as you become expertise, would you mind updating your blog with more details? It is highly helpful for me. Big thumb up for this blog post!
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obat raja singa said...

Thanks for share..more wait
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obat raja singa said...


semoga bermanfaat... terima kasih....
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tyler durden said...


I’d have to check with you here. Which is not something I usually do! I enjoy reading a post that will make people think. Also, thanks for allowing me to comment!
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obat kutil kelamin yang alami said...

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Obat Tradisional Paru-Paru Berair said...

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tyler durden said...

thanks....
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obat herbal kutil kelamin said...

thanks....
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Arjuna Subagyo said...

thanks....
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Herbal de nature said...

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Herbal de nature said...

thanks....
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OBAT HERBAL UNTUK BINTIK BINTIK DI KEMALUAN said...

There are certainly a lot of details like that to take into consideration. That is a great point to bring up. I offer the thoughts above as general inspiration but clearly there are questions like the one you bring up where the most important thing will be working in honest good faith. I don?t know if best practices have emerged around things like that, but I am sure that your job is clearly identified as a fair game. Both boys and girls feel the impact of just a moment’s pleasure, for the rest of their lives.
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Arjuna Subagyo said...

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obat herbal kutil kelamin said...

This article is unique and interesting. thanks for your share. I have been meaning to write something like this on my website and you have given me an idea.
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obat herbal kutil kelamin said...

The next time I read a blog, I hope that it doesnt disappoint me as much as this one. I mean, I know it was my choice to read, but I actually thought youd have something interesting to say. All I hear is a bunch of whining about something that you could fix if you werent too busy looking for attention.
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Unknown said...

I’m impressed, I must say. Really rarely do I encounter a blog that’s both educative and entertaining, and let me tell you, you have hit the nail on the head. Your idea is outstanding; the issue is something that not enough people are speaking intelligently about. I am very happy that I stumbled across this in my search for something relating to this.
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